Facilitated by Kelby Carlson
The concept of the inerrancy of Scripture was a discussion that didn’t really begin until the 1970s. The Fundamentalist/Modernist controversy over Scripture had been going on since the turn of the century; before that American Christianity was dominated by Protestants; Catholics really didn’t have a voice in American Christianity until then.
The Modernists embraced modern, liberal philosophy of Christianity based on the Universal Fatherhood of God/Universal Brotherhood of Man. All humans are brothers; being Christian or churchgoing did not set you apart from your unbelieving brothers. Modernists believed in the basic ethical rightness of Scripture, but not necessarily the miracles or the deity of Christ.
The Fundamentalists got their name from a series of pamphlets called “The Fundamentals” published 1910-1915 by the Bible Institute of Los Angeles. They affirmed conservative Protestant beliefs and attacked liberal theology, modernism, and evolutionism, among others.
American Christianity began to split between 2 camps: “Mainline” Protestants and “Evangelical” Protestants. (Interesting side note: The “Mainline” Protestants got their name from the main train line in Chicago!) The mainline Protestants included Methodists, Presbyterians, American Baptists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc. They tended to separate themselves from ‘the world,’ so there was a rise of evangelistic denominations, which were more conservative, but tried to take the faith back into society. The Evangelistic movement also began to split into 2 factions, the more liberal holding that scripture is a revelation from God but it has errors in it and is only a guide. (Neo-orthodoxy was the movement within liberal Protestantism that sought to recover the centrality of the Gospel and the uniqueness of Christ; while they affirmed Scripture is a revelation [or witness to Revelation] they believed that it could have historical and scientific mistakes).
The conservative faction put together a manifesto called The Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy. This Statement’s formal definition of scriptural inerrancy was based on the inerrancy of the ‘original, autographed manuscripts’ of the biblical books. “Original” means the original language that the bible was written in: Hebrew. “Autographed” means the actual manuscript in the actual handwriting of the author. Which of course begs the question of the entire Old Testament, for which we have no manuscripts in the original author’s hand, and many books of the OT were passed on orally for generations before they were written down.
Standard objections to inerrancy:
Scientific objection: The bible seem to contradict known scientific fact: the story of creation has no basis in scientific fact; the statement that the heavens are a ‘dome’ and the stars are fixed permanently in the dome, the story of the earth standing still, etc.
The Gospels objection: the 4 Gospels contradict each other (e.g., Jesus’ two seemingly inconsistent genealogies, Judas’ death, who came to the tomb first on Easter, how many angels were there, etc.)
Is it all allegory or all literal? Doesn’t it have to be one or the other? And how can humans, who are fallible, interpret it correctly when it is so ambiguous?
Discussion: Higgs boson awards
Dale attempted to explain it to us but.... wha?
They can't find Higgs he's hiding out somewhere. May not even know he has won 1/2 of 1.2 MIL. You never know how much those napkin equation scribbles can be worth.
Discussion:
Talked of pet experiences.
Discussion:
Habakkuk Reading: 3 : 17 -- Read it.
Discussion:
Dale asks what are the titles and positions in the church and the derivatives of those titles and seeking the origins of authority behind these positions.
Discussion:
Women and their positions and the view of Paul towards Phoebe and how he upheld her a leader and builder of the kingdom on earth and how she even helped him in his spiritual journey.
Discussion:
David Rohl DVDs
Pharos and Kings a biblical quest
Follow along with David as he explores the ancient world and follows a radical new theory that finally locates all the missing puzzel pieces in Egypt and the holy land. As he fixes the chronology then looks in the same places but in the correct time period and all the evidence comes shouting out we are here, we have been here the whole time.
Discussion:
Q: Why is the description so detailed for how to build the tabernacle by God
A: Oral detailed description vs blue prints is one answer. A thousand words instead of a picture (blueprint).
A2: There are correlation between materials and placement and cultural symbols and references.
A3: A foreshadowing of Christ
Discussion:
Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute?
A: Nope
Luke 8 v2 Wiki Reference
Discussion:
Second Coming and millennial Reign
Post; Pre; A : Millennial --- This recorder is confused
This is what I thought I hear... I still could have wrong if I am then fix it
in your write in responses to this blog.
Pre -> Rapture of church prior to the judgment going into the Millennial
Post -> We get better towards the period of the Millennial
A -> Set in the hearts of Christians for a Millennial
What is the mechanism by which we will know the second coming is breaking.
Voice of God? Trumpets? Heavenly sign?
Discussion:
Random:
Crusader Comics Cool series part of Dales Youth remembrances.
Bible Vs referenced during this meeting
Philippians 2 v6
Kenosis -> When God becomes man.
Light -> Source migration from physics to God.
Discussion:
What fetuses are able to perceive in terms of color in the womb.
Discussion:
Keeping the Sabbath, Points of discussion...
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath
We are always in the Sabbath as Christ has fulfilled the Sabbath
We are living out in His rest, the rest of the seventh day which times we are in.
Discussion: Sin and Temptation in Heaven
Will we be tempted by sin in heaven?
When we get to heaven we are made in God's image. Sin will die away with our earthly body and what remains is that which in the likeness of God minus the sin nature perfected in the light and power and in the spirit of God. We will receive a new heart a heart after God's heart.
Discussion: A scary encounter between Moses and The Lord
22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "
24 At a lodging place on the way, the LORD met Moses and was about to kill him. 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it."Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me," she said. 26 So the LORD let him alone. (At that time she said "bridegroom of blood," referring to circumcision.)
Discussion: Ambassador for Christ
Investigating our witness in the world as Christians. Various stories and where we have failed and fail repeatedly. Stories where hilarious and mortifying.
True prayer is asking to shine the light into the dark recesses of our being and reveal what needs addressing.
Discussion: Suicide and eternal security
Will a Christian who commits Suicide still receive eternal rest? Our consensus is YES. Although strongly and adamantly discouraged.
If Satan can get you to believe that God doesn't accept you he can render you an ineffectual.
When you have your security in heaven your attitude should be that you would wish to be in heaven unafraid of death, but in the midst of that, you want to remain earth bound, and be of use for building the kingdom.
Discussion: Book of Isaiah
Lots of prophases about current times and end times and meshes them together. How their is a lack of chronology that in Isaiah chronology was not the focus.
Revisionists would say that Isaiah was three different collections. Traditionalists would disagree. It is suggested that Isaiah may have put these together at the end of his life as he probably had a scribe that chronicled his works over his life and they were collected and recorded as a cohesive work.
Passage discussion: Isaha 20:1 2 at that time the LORD spoke through Isaiah son of Amoz. He said to him, "Take off the sackcloth from your body and the sandals from your feet." And he did so, going around stripped and barefoot.
- Prince of peace VS I have not come to bring peace but to set one family member against another discussion. Peace and turmoil in creation.
- Isaiah's prophesy about the future of king Cyrus
- Cyrus's Cylinder was discussed releases the nation of Israel from Babylonian captivity.
- Dead Sea scrolls giving us a measure of the faithfulness of recording of the book of Isaiah.
- The book of Isaiah meant to be read 200 years after his death as the fruition of many prophecies would be realized.
Chronology of the Koran was discussed and reference to the Hadith. Hadith being the sayings and traditions of Mohammad. Discussion: of Ancient land masses and their religions, leaders, and influences.
Personalities:
- Diocletian (nasty dude)
- Constantine
- Alexander
- Mohammad
- Miller Lights? err Millerites Discussion: about Prophases:
How often they are relevant for the times and the future. They can be recognized at the time as a prophesy or may not be recognized till their future relevance comes forth.
Some discussion of the Revelation, and apocryphal prophesies.
- Prosecution of the church from many different angles
Egypt -> Egyptians -> Romans -> Ottoman Empire
What happens to Hosea's wife? The prostitute. Discussion: about the Christian life, carrying your cross, being a disciple. Making his will your will.
- Witnessing stories.
- Suffering the persecutions because we know what the prize is. Discussion: A seeming discrepancy of the 4 gospels regarding the chronology of the recruitment of the disciples. Andy resolves this question. Discussion: Peters Letters: His letters are written in very bad greek.
He was rough but had a great heart and was a rock. Wow how he polished up!
Whitney had the question of how do we know if persecution is reinforcement for doing the right things i.e. John 15:18 when Jesus says, "If they persecuted me they will persecute you also." VS. How we do know when we are persecuted because we are being disciplined for doing the wrong things i.e. Revelation 2:5 where Jesus says, "If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place," or again in verse 16 he says "Repent, therefore! Otherwise I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth!" He also says flat out in verse 19 "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline."
So we can stand assured we will face persecution in our lives. Whether it be persecution from the world because they hated Jesus first therefore they will hate us, OR God will allow persecution to happen to the church that's misbehaving in order to teach it a lesson or see which way it turns. Question is, how do we know which of the two we are facing?
We didn't discuss this for very long so please feel free to comment and answer better. But what we came up with was that God isn't going to punish you without letting you know why. He's going to send a prophet or reveal certain wisdom to the person or group that he's disciplining. Just as a Father isn't going to slap his child on the wrist and NOT tell them why, our Heavenly Father isn't going to let us suffer without revealing to us WHY he's doing that, we just have to be willing to ask him and listen to the answer. Similarly if a church that is doing all the right things and is pacing persecution BECAUSE of it, God will encourage and assure them.
This week's conversation centered mostly on salvation. The question that I brought fourth is how does a Christian really know they are saved?
The Bible tells us salvation requires only two simple things: "[1]That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and [2]believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9) But this sounds easier than it really is, at least for me. What does it really mean to "believe with your heart?" In other words, how can you be sure believe something from the core of your being vs. being book-smart, and knowing all of the facts about something? If we really believe, shouldn't we be able to "move mountains," and perform miracles just as Jesus did? But I've never healed anyone, cast out demons, or raised someone from the dead, much less moved a mountain (at least not that I've seen). So how can I be sure I believe? Also, I don't feel that my faith has really been put to the test. Thank God, I've lived a blessed life, and I haven't yet been put in a situation where all other factors have been stripped away, and I had to rely solely on my faith to get me through. So again, how can I be sure I even have it?
In our meeting we discussed what it means to believe and be saved. John mentioned that even Satan believed in Jesus, so it seems it's not your belief by itself that will save you. If we know and confesses that God exists but we don't love him, we are missing the point altogether. We need to love God. After all the first and greatest commandment is to "love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul." The question was posed "how do you know you love your boyfriend? Your mother? A friend?" If we love someone, we are going to show it outwardly, we are going to act like we do. If I love my friend I will respect her, and I'm probably going to do the things she asks me to do (and be happy to help her)! I'm also going to make an effort to work on that relationship, because no relationship is perfect. There will be ups and downs, and if there is love, there will be forgiveness, honesty and trust. Our loving relationship with God should be no different. We should be happy to do the things He asks us to do, and we should be continually communicating and working on our relationship with Him. We should be honest, and be trusting of one another.
So one good way to know if we really believe is to look at the way we act. If we love God, it should come as second nature to follow his instructions, and to seek him out. Are we thirsty for his guidance and teaching? Are we desperate for a closer relationship and walk with him? And while the evidence of fruit in our lives isn't proof of salvation, it is a good indicator of whether or not the Spirit is dwelling in us. Are we loving our neighbors as ourselves? Are we producing the fruits of the spirit such as love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?
We also had a brief discussion on "Romans Road." This is a collection of verses Romans, that will help a Christian understand what it means to be saved. It expands on the two simple requirements given in Romans 10:9 mentioned earlier. Romans road begins with Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
In other words, we all have sin in our hearts, and were born under sin's control.
--So step 1 is to be able to admit that you are a sinner.
Next is Romans 6:23A "...The wages of sin is death..."
This means that sin has an ending, always resulting in death. We all face physical death, which is a result of our fallen nature. But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity. The Bible teaches that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever. It is the place where people who are spiritually dead will remain.
--So step 2 is understanding that we all deserve death for our sin.
Next is Romans 6:23B "...But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
We learn that salvation is a free gift from God to you! There's nothing you can do to earn this gift, but you must reach out and receive it.
--So step 3 is ask God to forgive you and save you.
Then comes Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"
Here we see that when Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. When He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life. He did all this because He loved us and gave Himself for us!
--So step 4 is to give your life to God... His love poured out in Jesus on the cross is your only hope to have forgiveness and change. His love bought you out of being a slave to sin, His love is what you have to accept in order to have the benefits of everlasting life with him. God loves you! So it's only natural that we should love him back by giving up our lives to him!
Next is Romans 10:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!"
We can't rely on our own efforts to get us through life, we must rely on the Lord. He knows everything, He's our loving Father and wants what's best for us. Therefore it just makes sense to ask him to guide us rather than blindly leading ourselves.
--So we see that step 5 is to rely on and pray to God in Jesus' name.
Finally we have Romans 10:9,10 "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." As discussed before, it is of utmost importance that we not only believe that Christ died for our sins, was resurrected and still lives in heaven, but we MUST profess this with our mouths! If we truly believe that Jesus' blood is life giving and represents his love for us, then we need to share it with others!
--So step 6 is if you feel God knocking on your heart's door, invite him in and let him dwell in you. Accept his gift to you! Cherish your relationship and tell others about what he's done! Our salvation is secured.
Westboro Baptist Church's dogma does not reflect Christ, Christians, or Christianity.
The Westboro Baptist Church rejects the Bible's claim of what sins God can and will forgive. Biblically, there is only one unforgivable sin- rejecting the Holy Spirit, sometimes translated as "blasphemy" (Matthew 12: 31-32, Luke 12:10, Mark 3:28-29). A different post will discuss this.
Their hatred causes unbelievers to reject the Holy Spirit.
As Christians who accepted the great commission and respect Christ's sacrifice for EVERYONE, we repudiate this group.
There are more examples of their failure to adhere to Biblical priciples, but for now this will do.
My apologies for being behind on posting. There is a lot of meat here!
Important- "Evangelical," "evangelist," and "evangelism" in this post mean "spreading the good news."
Whitney asked what was the difference between discipleship and evangelism; she posted about that as well on this blog. Biblicaly, we couldn't tell much of a difference since Christians find themselves filling many roles in others' conversions. As a street evangelist for years, Kitty never "led anyone to Christ." However, she was often the actor who introduced someone to the person through whom Jesus worked for their actual conversion. We should all be sowing, watering, reaping...whatever role Christ chooses for us to advance his kingdom in specific situations.
We are living in a post-modern world (lots of conversation about post-modernist philosophers and their contributions to Western thought). Most Westerners live by the post-modern philosophy expressed in the movie Moulon Rouge: We all want to love and be loved. (My cynical side notices that it's the other way around usually.) Francis Schaffer and Charles Stromer address evangelizing in the post-modern world. Charles Stromer's phrase is, "We are not sinking ships." Conversions do not occur by yelling at someone or stomping them in a rhetorical argument. A good evangelist approaches and witnesses to people from where they are, using words and concepts from their lexicon. Malcom Smith said that fans and fanatics turn every conversation towards their passion...we should be like Jeramiah who said, "The word of God was a fire within me, yearning to come out," (Jeremiah 20:9) but Christians' buzzwords, like "leading someone to Christ," result in miscommunications with nonbelievers.
Evangelism and discipling depend on interpersonal relationships. You must make friends and tell them about Jesus. You don't decide to be their friend so you can tell them about Jesus, but you tell them about Jesus because you love them.
We agreed one of the weaknesses of evangelism is that new Christians are sometimes left to struggle along by themselves after their conversions. Christians have an obligation to disciple each other, to participate in the increase of the knowledge and power of the Gospel within each others' lives. Christ said, "Where ever two or three are gathered in my name, I am there in the midst of them," (Mathew 18:20). Together, Christians' relationship with our Lord has a different power and immediacy, and new Christians need that as they experiance profound changes within their lives. As Christianity competes in the marketplace of ideas, Christians must understand the Gospel. Nonbelievers make all sorts of claims, like "Christians hate gays," that drive people away.
Witnessing is "soft" evangelism. It's simply presenting what happened at your conversion and your relationship with the Gospel to someone who wants to talk to you. There were some powerful witness stories at our last meeting:
Kitty told about a man who made an improper suggestion to her at a bar. When she turned him down, he asked why. When she answered, "Because I am a Christian," he broke down, put his head in his hands, and said, "OK God, I surrender. I can't get away from you." He was there that night to escape from and rebel against God for the growing conviction that he was in an improper relationship. Kitty's comment, and the subsequent conversation, resulted in his changing his life. A few years later, he approached her at a conference and had the congregation pray for her in gratitude for her being in the right place at the right time.
John, being a bouncer, talked about checking ID. He says, "I'm John. I'll be your bouncer for tonight. If you need me, I am right here." While he is terrifying if necessary, he is often asked why he is so nice. That gives him a chance to witness. John's testimony was amazing. He was angry with God. While God has never spoken to him audibly, he "felt" God say, "What have I promised you?" John thought about it and answered, "A cross." God's answer was, "Pick it up. Follow that guy with the crown of thorns home, and try not to come back alone."
I have tried to divide this between science on the top and religious and legal below. If you have any thoughts on things that should be added or changed please make a post and I will update.
I figure I should answer this first.
If asked by my loved ones I would say: 2
If asked what government should enforce including rape or incest I would say: 4
If the mothers life was genuinely at risk I would say: 7 or 8 (At least try an emergency caesarean if you can.)
There appears to be much confusion about the use of the terms Fundamentalist and Evangelical. Here I have attempted to create a Venn Diagram of how I see the distinction. There are other views such as the view that fundamentalism is based on the literal interpretation of scripture.
Sorry this took so long to get out here. It was a great meeting on Tuesday, and I hope everyone comes this week.
We started off with comedian Tim Hawkins and his GPS, "You're on your own. Your guess is as good as mine." Laughing about how his skit depicts "a hedge of protection" took us in interesting directions. From the devil shouting, "Curses, they found my weakness! Landscaping!" to a discussion of Jefferson's quote of "a wall of protection between church and state" from the letter to the Danbury Baptists that has shaped interpretation of the Constitution to Psalm 139, for a reference to a hedge of angels- which provides more protection than boxwoods.
Satan:Martin Luther was very matter-of-fact about the devil, claiming he was in his bath house, like a wicked case of grout mold. An earthy man, Luther's directive concerning the devil was that the devil was "to eat his own shit." (An excellent article is Luther Against the Devil by Heiko A. Oberman.) Luther also observed, "Man is a mule to be ridden by either God or the devil," and "If God is with us, who can stand against us?" Satan is God's sheepdog? Consider Paul's claims that he has delivered certain members of the congregation to Satan so that they may be rebuked and return to Christ. When confronted with Satan, or his minions since none of us are a Martin Luther, pray. It's the ideal response because you enter the presence of God. Lift up others and lift up the church (the Bride of Christ, not any particular denomination). The comment "the church is the devil's playground" led us into...
Rejoice and pray for AJ's sister who has just accepted Christ!Hallelujah! The bummer is that her church acted cruelly. Because she lives with her fiance, her church rejected her baptism request- and conveyed the information to her through her fiances' parents. As previously said, the devil's playground. Our group prayed for the new Christian, that she will be baptized soon and find a church family that will love and instruct her on how to be a Christian... and she has AJ on long distance speed dial.
TheAnglican/Episcopal split...since this is a mostly Anglican group. The ordination of a homosexual bishop was not why the Anglicans split from the Episcopal church. His ordination was the final demonstration of a political struggle within the church as to whether church leaders were required to maintain religious orthodoxy pertaining to the gospel. The issue began in the 1960s with Bishop James Pike's rejection of the trinity, the resurrection, and the virgin birth while retaining his position as a bishop and has continued to today with the head of the Episcopal Church, The Most Rev. Dr. Katharine Jefferts Schori stating, "If we say you have to believe in the resurrection to be saved, it's like putting God in a box." Every person can believe what they want (free will is divinely given) but the heads of religious organizations must be publicly orthodox or their organizations lose their doctrinal compass, (There were other examples that are not germane to this post. If you have more questions, chuck them in the comments section.)
BTW- Christian doctrine is that belief in the resurrection is absolutely necessary for salvation. It's Biblical.
More Anglican ruminations: We need to let go of any issues with the Episcopal church and move forward without bitterness- are ideally positioned to be members of global and local communities- have unique relationship with global south churches within the global Anglican communion.
Discipline: The church needs good leaders with it and and members of the body of Christ need it too. Ditto developing spiritual maturity. Recipe is found in 1 Timothy and 1st Corinthians. Leadership is based on the Holy Spirit calling and in-dwelling. Without it, shouldn't be a leader. God chooses- example is Jonah- and any decisions made separate from His choosing are bad ones.
Homosexuality:Painful subject since group members have loved ones who are homosexual. Biblically, homosexual activity is sinful. We discussed whether we believed that people were born heterosexual or homosexual, or if it was a choice; based on empirical and anecdotal data, the consensus was that some people are born with proclivities either way and some follow cultural norms. We are more than animals but incorrectly define ourselves based on our flesh, As Christians, we should define ourselves in Christ as citizens of Heaven, Colossians 3. American Christians obsess over lust but ignore gossip, drunkenness, gluttony, and wrath- or not loving/forgiving neighbors. Every sinner must be welcomed into the church and led into a love relationship with Christ such that they fall in love with Jesus and want to be right with him. We Christians must improve our track record regarding this.
As acitizen of Heaven, can you serve your country? Yes- provided your service does not violate your Christian injunctions. For example- cannot worship the emperor or the eagles at the top of the banners.
Image of God: God's image is not like man's or woman's. Our image is like His. What is similar between us is what resembles God.
The majority of the evening we discussed The Trinity: AJ will do a better post in days to follow, but here is a brief run down of a difficult topic.
- Sex mirrors The Trinity (woke you up with that one, didn't we). Allegorically...that level of intimacy is what Heaven is and The Trinity has a constant creative potentiality. The Holy Spirit flows from the relationship between the Father and the Son. Similarly, allegorically, like sex, the Eucharist is a continual physical consummation of a relationship with God. Hmmm, may have missed something because this looks weak. If any of y'all remember more, put it in the comments.
- The Shack is a good book but does a terrible job explaining The Trinity. The Shack's depicting of The Trinity is not doctrinal and goes against the Bible's claim that no one has seen the face of God and lived. Can you flesh this out, Andy? Maybe a separate post? So what about Moses talking with God, face to face? That was Jesus. Whenever anyone meets with God, they meet with Jesus.
- Why isn't The Trinity three gods? How is it One God and still three? Rodney has wrestled with this for years. It just doesn't make sense.
-- Biblically, told there is one God ("Hear oh Israel, your Lord God is one." Deuteronomy 6: 4)
-- HUGE QUESTION- resolved at the Counsel of Calcedon in 452 as one God, three identities of God the Father, Christ one person with human and divine nature, and the Holy Spirit.
-- It's not schizophrenic and it's not modalism (one at a time).
-- What we know are the facts: God with you is the Holy Spirit,; Christ was here and is now seated by God the Father; and God the Father created and maintains.
-- "I and the Father are one." John 10: 30.
-- There are more analogies that hint at The Trinity, but they are NOT The Trinity. Body, mind, and soul are like The Trinity. Entangled particles are an example of something like God in that something can be in one place and still affect another thing far away. TV is an analogy... a family is a little like The Trinity.
-- Why is The Trinity necessary? Because the nature of God is love, and cannot have love without there being someone to love.
-- It's a mystery, but it makes sense that God should be so complicated that we can't easily define/grasp Him.
-- Could not have salvation by God's death without The Trinity.
-- Our union with God comes through Christ. We will access The Father the same way Christ does but will not be gods in our own right.
South Sudan- we'll be praying to see if there is anything God is calling our group to do regarding South Sudan.
Next week- Spiritual Warfare. Whew. Ew. Stay tuned.
His question is?
Are human populations lacking any beliefs in superempirical agents doomed to demographic extinction?
My answer to his question is...
Yes, of course they are, because if they are honest they should not care. They believe they will cease to exist at death, and all evidence of there existence will be erased when the sun becomes a red giant or if humanity escapes the inner solar system then when all life in the universe dies in the big freeze.
Here is my question; God said, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Now I believe God's 'commands' are actually in our best interest. So is it our Christian duty to reproduce?
Here's a quick, incomplete recap of what we discussed last night. Please comment, correct, or start a different post.
Great discussion of Isaiah 50! John, thanks for bringing this forward! Andy's comment that this is the Chritian escatalogical journey was amazing. The break down of the chapter goes like this: Vs 1-3 God tells Israel that they are still His and He is their leader even though their kings are ungodly. Vs 4-9 is the Messiah who will come for them, and, vs 10, if they heed and follow him all will be well no matter what but, v 11, if they go it alone, they're doomed.
More claims to consider:
- Isaiah is supposed to be a comforting book for a people in captivity, written 200 years before the captivity occurred.
- Does teaching/ education have to hurt?
- Because God promised from the very beginning that Christ was coming, Isaiah assumed the promise of salvation was already met. It's like if your mom said she was going to put $ into your account so you went out and wrote checks the next day because you knew she was good for it. Even though temporally Christ had not come yet, Isaiah knew he would so everyone who would be saved was already. Is this still the dynamic?
Translations of the Bible by necessity have editorial religious interpretations. The capitalization within Isaiah 50: 4-11 is an example, since Hebrew does not have capitalization. The New American Standard Bible is the most literal, word for word, translation but its editors assumed the reader understood preexisting context. Word-for-word translation is not necessarily the best translation since context and meaning is more than a word-for-word exchange. [Think about it- what does "yea, right" mean?]
"Selah" means "put that in your pipe and smoke it."
Repentance: John's analogy of returning to the gas station before you ran out of gas since you would have to walk back for gas anyway was given a lot of thought. Dale disagreed with the concept, implicit in the analogy, of needing to return to a preexisting condition since sometimes you cannot. Sometimes Christians get stuck because they try to return to a point in their spiritual journey that is not available to them any more. Everyone agreed that repentance was adjusting oneself to ressume a path determined by God. (Psalm 139, Phillipeans 3: 4-13, and multiple Old Testament places were cited but I can't remember why).
Are there unforgivable sins? No- Jesus bore every sin on the cross and was forgiven. Dale's grandpa committed war crimes and told Dale, "No Dale. There are some things for which there is no forgiveness." Praise the Lord, a Lutheran minister met with him for years until he received forgiveness. Thank you Jesus. [Dear reader- Jesus was always ready to forgive him, but Parvin wasn't willing to take it. That's why the word is "receive." If you are suffering due to past sins, even if you murdered others in cold blood, He will forgive you if you ask. You will be forgiven and may adjust yourself to be on a path with God. It's that easy. Halleluia and amen!]
If you repent, do you have to turn yourself over to the authorities for crimes you commited? It depends. What does God want you to do? Restitution?
Hearing God's Voice: There are many Christians who never hear an audible voice. Discussion on sanity and the fear inherent in physically hearing God's voice. Other means of communication with God- understanding that some things He is not concerned about how you choose. Conscience, not a feeling but the knowledge of right and wrong (Romans 2: 14-16). Communication through scripture- most common. Communication through others. Communication through silence- all agreed this was worse than a divine rebuke. Knowledge "in your bones:" Dale's example of walking through faith in the direction that he has always known to be where he is supposed to be [some of us are more heard headed]. Communication in prayer. A feeling, a still, quiet thought that "sounds" like your thoughts but is in another direction than your norm. TEST all communication you believe is from God- does it conform to scripture and the nature of God revealed therein, does it bear fruit in accordance with the will of God, is it confirmed by others? Sometimes it's all about slowly "turning the boat" back towards Him- like Naomi's decision to return to Bethlehem in The Book of Ruth.
Image of God:Christians will judge angels (1 Corrinthians 6:3). Christ existed before the creation of the earth, and humanity was created in the image of Christ. God was human before there were humans. This makes Satan really angry- he's still trying to convince God that humanity is a bad idea and isn't worth the effort. Angels aren't all knowing; they look upon the earth and learn (Ephesians 3: 10 and 1 Peter 1:12). Satan's title in Job- the prosecuting attorney. Also a discussion that Satan's actions are to hurt God because he hates him because of....jealousy?
The Revelation: AJ has to do a seperate post so we can capture the depth of the discussion. He gave an exegesis of pre- post- and a- millinialist thought. Andy stated The Revelation was the most symbolic book of the Bible and had to be read carefully as such- and warned us all about wading into that morass... and there we went, "Yoiks! Yoiks!"
- Nero was The Beast. The prophecy was written between 60-90s AD, usually believed to be the 90s.
- "Abomination of the desecration" was bringing of the Roman eagles, which were worshiped by the legions, into the temple.
- The anti-christ was not a specific person. The term has a specific connontation of deification of emperors or leaders of state. Any ruler who is worshiped after Christ's birth is an anti-christ, and they exists every generation. The Dear Leaders of North Korea are anti-christs. Not as dramatic as Left Behind or The Omen...
Faith- The Slap Down: The definition of faith is trusting God and doing what he has called you to do. So the question is: do you live like you believe it?
Please add in anything I missed. I'm not sure about this format. What do you think?
Tonight's conversations were wide ranging and a lot of fun, starting with Biblomancy and ending with The Revelation. Two topics that we did not link during conversation beg to be discussed as one post: Biblomancy and Listening to God.
Biblomancy (John made up the word) is using the Bible for fortune telling. People ask a question, open the Bible, and blindly select a verse expecting an answer to their question. This is a misuse of the Bible since God is not a slot machine that responds when you insert a quarter and pull his arm. Why do people do this, other than it's easier than rooting around in a sheep's entrails? It probably stems from not understanding what is meant when the Bible is used to "hear God's word."
"Hearing God's word" is Christian-speak/slang for getting a message from the Lord. He communicates with us many different ways, ranging from actually speaking to us (check your Bible- that's usually a significant emotional event), to angelic messenger (another significant emotional event) to dreams to your conscience to hearing Him "speak" through others....you get the idea. Prayerful reading of the Bible is how most Christians most intimately encounter the personality and will of the living God- don't ask me how the Holy Spirit does it, He just does.
You can see how that prayerful ability to open the Bible and know the omnipotent, omnipresent God, Lord of all that is, seen and unseen, could easily be corrupted into a cheap magic trick. Biblomancy deprives the reader from "hearing God's word" because the reader has gone to the Bible entirely focused on him or her self. It can also be a form of idolatry in which a book made of paper is assumed to be an agent of Godly power. The Bible is there for communication with God, but on His terms.
More on this topic later...
Lastly, because I can't get the song out of my head, here it is: A Message From The Lord by Veggie Tales.
BTW- The person filming the clip smacked her little brother because he was interupting her. Listen for his "ow!"
Are there Aliens, Who are they? What are they? Where did they come from? Where you kidnapped and put back? Is there anything for or against their existence in scripture? Give us your thoughts.
Hell! Who Created it? When was it created? Does it exist? Who will go there? What awaits its occupants? Is it Fair? How do differing faiths perceive Hell? Does it change over time? This and many more questions are up for grabs.
Topics are presented but this group is out of control and all over the place. It can be hard to keep up at times. Join in on the fun the discussion and the sharing. Join us in our exploration of HELL.
I found this link which explores the topic
