I have tried to divide this between science on the top and religious and legal below. If you have any thoughts on things that should be added or changed please make a post and I will update.
I figure I should answer this first.
If asked by my loved ones I would say: 2
If asked what government should enforce including rape or incest I would say: 4
If the mothers life was genuinely at risk I would say: 7 or 8 (At least try an emergency caesarean if you can.)
There appears to be much confusion about the use of the terms Fundamentalist and Evangelical. Here I have attempted to create a Venn Diagram of how I see the distinction. There are other views such as the view that fundamentalism is based on the literal interpretation of scripture.
Sorry this took so long to get out here. It was a great meeting on Tuesday, and I hope everyone comes this week.
We started off with comedian Tim Hawkins and his GPS, "You're on your own. Your guess is as good as mine." Laughing about how his skit depicts "a hedge of protection" took us in interesting directions. From the devil shouting, "Curses, they found my weakness! Landscaping!" to a discussion of Jefferson's quote of "a wall of protection between church and state" from the letter to the Danbury Baptists that has shaped interpretation of the Constitution to Psalm 139, for a reference to a hedge of angels- which provides more protection than boxwoods.
Satan:Martin Luther was very matter-of-fact about the devil, claiming he was in his bath house, like a wicked case of grout mold. An earthy man, Luther's directive concerning the devil was that the devil was "to eat his own shit." (An excellent article is Luther Against the Devil by Heiko A. Oberman.) Luther also observed, "Man is a mule to be ridden by either God or the devil," and "If God is with us, who can stand against us?" Satan is God's sheepdog? Consider Paul's claims that he has delivered certain members of the congregation to Satan so that they may be rebuked and return to Christ. When confronted with Satan, or his minions since none of us are a Martin Luther, pray. It's the ideal response because you enter the presence of God. Lift up others and lift up the church (the Bride of Christ, not any particular denomination). The comment "the church is the devil's playground" led us into...
Rejoice and pray for AJ's sister who has just accepted Christ!Hallelujah! The bummer is that her church acted cruelly. Because she lives with her fiance, her church rejected her baptism request- and conveyed the information to her through her fiances' parents. As previously said, the devil's playground. Our group prayed for the new Christian, that she will be baptized soon and find a church family that will love and instruct her on how to be a Christian... and she has AJ on long distance speed dial.
TheAnglican/Episcopal split...since this is a mostly Anglican group. The ordination of a homosexual bishop was not why the Anglicans split from the Episcopal church. His ordination was the final demonstration of a political struggle within the church as to whether church leaders were required to maintain religious orthodoxy pertaining to the gospel. The issue began in the 1960s with Bishop James Pike's rejection of the trinity, the resurrection, and the virgin birth while retaining his position as a bishop and has continued to today with the head of the Episcopal Church, The Most Rev. Dr. Katharine Jefferts Schori stating, "If we say you have to believe in the resurrection to be saved, it's like putting God in a box." Every person can believe what they want (free will is divinely given) but the heads of religious organizations must be publicly orthodox or their organizations lose their doctrinal compass, (There were other examples that are not germane to this post. If you have more questions, chuck them in the comments section.)
BTW- Christian doctrine is that belief in the resurrection is absolutely necessary for salvation. It's Biblical.
More Anglican ruminations: We need to let go of any issues with the Episcopal church and move forward without bitterness- are ideally positioned to be members of global and local communities- have unique relationship with global south churches within the global Anglican communion.
Discipline: The church needs good leaders with it and and members of the body of Christ need it too. Ditto developing spiritual maturity. Recipe is found in 1 Timothy and 1st Corinthians. Leadership is based on the Holy Spirit calling and in-dwelling. Without it, shouldn't be a leader. God chooses- example is Jonah- and any decisions made separate from His choosing are bad ones.
Homosexuality:Painful subject since group members have loved ones who are homosexual. Biblically, homosexual activity is sinful. We discussed whether we believed that people were born heterosexual or homosexual, or if it was a choice; based on empirical and anecdotal data, the consensus was that some people are born with proclivities either way and some follow cultural norms. We are more than animals but incorrectly define ourselves based on our flesh, As Christians, we should define ourselves in Christ as citizens of Heaven, Colossians 3. American Christians obsess over lust but ignore gossip, drunkenness, gluttony, and wrath- or not loving/forgiving neighbors. Every sinner must be welcomed into the church and led into a love relationship with Christ such that they fall in love with Jesus and want to be right with him. We Christians must improve our track record regarding this.
As acitizen of Heaven, can you serve your country? Yes- provided your service does not violate your Christian injunctions. For example- cannot worship the emperor or the eagles at the top of the banners.
Image of God: God's image is not like man's or woman's. Our image is like His. What is similar between us is what resembles God.
The majority of the evening we discussed The Trinity: AJ will do a better post in days to follow, but here is a brief run down of a difficult topic.
- Sex mirrors The Trinity (woke you up with that one, didn't we). Allegorically...that level of intimacy is what Heaven is and The Trinity has a constant creative potentiality. The Holy Spirit flows from the relationship between the Father and the Son. Similarly, allegorically, like sex, the Eucharist is a continual physical consummation of a relationship with God. Hmmm, may have missed something because this looks weak. If any of y'all remember more, put it in the comments.
- The Shack is a good book but does a terrible job explaining The Trinity. The Shack's depicting of The Trinity is not doctrinal and goes against the Bible's claim that no one has seen the face of God and lived. Can you flesh this out, Andy? Maybe a separate post? So what about Moses talking with God, face to face? That was Jesus. Whenever anyone meets with God, they meet with Jesus.
- Why isn't The Trinity three gods? How is it One God and still three? Rodney has wrestled with this for years. It just doesn't make sense.
-- Biblically, told there is one God ("Hear oh Israel, your Lord God is one." Deuteronomy 6: 4)
-- HUGE QUESTION- resolved at the Counsel of Calcedon in 452 as one God, three identities of God the Father, Christ one person with human and divine nature, and the Holy Spirit.
-- It's not schizophrenic and it's not modalism (one at a time).
-- What we know are the facts: God with you is the Holy Spirit,; Christ was here and is now seated by God the Father; and God the Father created and maintains.
-- "I and the Father are one." John 10: 30.
-- There are more analogies that hint at The Trinity, but they are NOT The Trinity. Body, mind, and soul are like The Trinity. Entangled particles are an example of something like God in that something can be in one place and still affect another thing far away. TV is an analogy... a family is a little like The Trinity.
-- Why is The Trinity necessary? Because the nature of God is love, and cannot have love without there being someone to love.
-- It's a mystery, but it makes sense that God should be so complicated that we can't easily define/grasp Him.
-- Could not have salvation by God's death without The Trinity.
-- Our union with God comes through Christ. We will access The Father the same way Christ does but will not be gods in our own right.
South Sudan- we'll be praying to see if there is anything God is calling our group to do regarding South Sudan.
Next week- Spiritual Warfare. Whew. Ew. Stay tuned.
His question is?
Are human populations lacking any beliefs in superempirical agents doomed to demographic extinction?
My answer to his question is...
Yes, of course they are, because if they are honest they should not care. They believe they will cease to exist at death, and all evidence of there existence will be erased when the sun becomes a red giant or if humanity escapes the inner solar system then when all life in the universe dies in the big freeze.
Here is my question; God said, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Now I believe God's 'commands' are actually in our best interest. So is it our Christian duty to reproduce?
Here's a quick, incomplete recap of what we discussed last night. Please comment, correct, or start a different post.
Great discussion of Isaiah 50! John, thanks for bringing this forward! Andy's comment that this is the Chritian escatalogical journey was amazing. The break down of the chapter goes like this: Vs 1-3 God tells Israel that they are still His and He is their leader even though their kings are ungodly. Vs 4-9 is the Messiah who will come for them, and, vs 10, if they heed and follow him all will be well no matter what but, v 11, if they go it alone, they're doomed.
More claims to consider:
- Isaiah is supposed to be a comforting book for a people in captivity, written 200 years before the captivity occurred.
- Does teaching/ education have to hurt?
- Because God promised from the very beginning that Christ was coming, Isaiah assumed the promise of salvation was already met. It's like if your mom said she was going to put $ into your account so you went out and wrote checks the next day because you knew she was good for it. Even though temporally Christ had not come yet, Isaiah knew he would so everyone who would be saved was already. Is this still the dynamic?
Translations of the Bible by necessity have editorial religious interpretations. The capitalization within Isaiah 50: 4-11 is an example, since Hebrew does not have capitalization. The New American Standard Bible is the most literal, word for word, translation but its editors assumed the reader understood preexisting context. Word-for-word translation is not necessarily the best translation since context and meaning is more than a word-for-word exchange. [Think about it- what does "yea, right" mean?]
"Selah" means "put that in your pipe and smoke it."
Repentance: John's analogy of returning to the gas station before you ran out of gas since you would have to walk back for gas anyway was given a lot of thought. Dale disagreed with the concept, implicit in the analogy, of needing to return to a preexisting condition since sometimes you cannot. Sometimes Christians get stuck because they try to return to a point in their spiritual journey that is not available to them any more. Everyone agreed that repentance was adjusting oneself to ressume a path determined by God. (Psalm 139, Phillipeans 3: 4-13, and multiple Old Testament places were cited but I can't remember why).
Are there unforgivable sins? No- Jesus bore every sin on the cross and was forgiven. Dale's grandpa committed war crimes and told Dale, "No Dale. There are some things for which there is no forgiveness." Praise the Lord, a Lutheran minister met with him for years until he received forgiveness. Thank you Jesus. [Dear reader- Jesus was always ready to forgive him, but Parvin wasn't willing to take it. That's why the word is "receive." If you are suffering due to past sins, even if you murdered others in cold blood, He will forgive you if you ask. You will be forgiven and may adjust yourself to be on a path with God. It's that easy. Halleluia and amen!]
If you repent, do you have to turn yourself over to the authorities for crimes you commited? It depends. What does God want you to do? Restitution?
Hearing God's Voice: There are many Christians who never hear an audible voice. Discussion on sanity and the fear inherent in physically hearing God's voice. Other means of communication with God- understanding that some things He is not concerned about how you choose. Conscience, not a feeling but the knowledge of right and wrong (Romans 2: 14-16). Communication through scripture- most common. Communication through others. Communication through silence- all agreed this was worse than a divine rebuke. Knowledge "in your bones:" Dale's example of walking through faith in the direction that he has always known to be where he is supposed to be [some of us are more heard headed]. Communication in prayer. A feeling, a still, quiet thought that "sounds" like your thoughts but is in another direction than your norm. TEST all communication you believe is from God- does it conform to scripture and the nature of God revealed therein, does it bear fruit in accordance with the will of God, is it confirmed by others? Sometimes it's all about slowly "turning the boat" back towards Him- like Naomi's decision to return to Bethlehem in The Book of Ruth.
Image of God:Christians will judge angels (1 Corrinthians 6:3). Christ existed before the creation of the earth, and humanity was created in the image of Christ. God was human before there were humans. This makes Satan really angry- he's still trying to convince God that humanity is a bad idea and isn't worth the effort. Angels aren't all knowing; they look upon the earth and learn (Ephesians 3: 10 and 1 Peter 1:12). Satan's title in Job- the prosecuting attorney. Also a discussion that Satan's actions are to hurt God because he hates him because of....jealousy?
The Revelation: AJ has to do a seperate post so we can capture the depth of the discussion. He gave an exegesis of pre- post- and a- millinialist thought. Andy stated The Revelation was the most symbolic book of the Bible and had to be read carefully as such- and warned us all about wading into that morass... and there we went, "Yoiks! Yoiks!"
- Nero was The Beast. The prophecy was written between 60-90s AD, usually believed to be the 90s.
- "Abomination of the desecration" was bringing of the Roman eagles, which were worshiped by the legions, into the temple.
- The anti-christ was not a specific person. The term has a specific connontation of deification of emperors or leaders of state. Any ruler who is worshiped after Christ's birth is an anti-christ, and they exists every generation. The Dear Leaders of North Korea are anti-christs. Not as dramatic as Left Behind or The Omen...
Faith- The Slap Down: The definition of faith is trusting God and doing what he has called you to do. So the question is: do you live like you believe it?
Please add in anything I missed. I'm not sure about this format. What do you think?
